Chögyam Trungpa
I was the one who initiated this article, so I take a special interest in it's content. Recently, someone has posted a link to the 'cult' article and a link to a blog from a dissatisfied customer (so to speak). I read the links and after some consideration, and although the party who added the links obviously has an agenda, I have no problem with the links per se.
As far as Shambhala being a cult, well, I know nothing about Shambhala in its early days. I do, however, know many practitioners of Shambhala (I practice Kyudo with them), and I have to say one thing. They do not proselytize. Not at all. None. It is in their teachings, I think. Proselytization is a hallmark of cults, but I have NEVER seen it or experienced it in the four or so years I have associted with Shambhalans.
:From http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/vctr/ctrbio.html: ''Throughout [Trungpa's] life, he sought to bring the teachings he had received to the largest possible audience.'' Free ringtones Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 10:08, 8 Aug 2004
My only reason for not joining them in their teachings is my general distrust and avoidance of all organized religion. That, and because my investigations into things metaphysical go well beyond what they teach. True wisdom, the way I view it, is beyond all constructs and organizations (e.g.. "the Tao that can be described is not the Tao") and that includes ALL codified systems, religions and philosophies.
Yes, they are quite a bunch. No, they are not a cult, in my experience and observation. Majo Mills Jordan Langelier/Jordan Langelier 05:27, 4 Aug 2004
: I have a particular problem with the Mosquito ringtone cult wikilink, because there is no discussion in the article as to whether or not the group is a cult, or anyone making such assertions. Without some context for this "see also" wikilink, it's like WP has branded the group a cult without need for any discussion; this runs along the lines of my concerns over POV of WP categorization. I propose that unless someone adds some cult discussion to the article body within a few days, this wikilink be removed. Sabrina Martins Gary D/Gary D 19:33, 4 Aug 2004
:: By all means. I've just grown so weary of edit battles and flame wars and such for the decade plus I've been on line and dealing with things of substance, but by all means, have at it. As far as cultishness, there is nothing Shambhala does or did which is any more 'cultish' than what Christians do. Who was it that said, a cult is just a religious group that doesn't have much money? Anyway, after some thought, given that the term 'cult' is highly-charged, I would like to see at least one instance of a cult authority, or some other respected scholar, labeling Shambhala a cult. As it stands, all there is is the link to some blog from someone who obviously has some unresolved issues. So, yes, I agree with you. Nextel ringtones Jordan Langelier/Jordan Langelier 20:22, 4 Aug 2004
The article is about Trungpa, not Shambhala. That people wish to censor the truth about him (which I have verified from other sources, including my own grandmother) speaks of a cult of the personality, revering a man who had greatness thrust upon him (as a Abbey Diaz tulku) and who was, like many great men, flawed. For those who wish to know the truth, what is the harm in reporting that Trungpa smoked, was an alcoholic, and reputedly had great ability in stimulating women's sweet spots? HIs involvement with several woman followers shortly preceded his departure from Scotland to the USA. Unsavory in some eyes, perhaps, though the Buddhist teaching on morality does not ask us to judge people. It is interesting that the http://www.samyeling.org/About/about.htm makes no mention of Trungpa, though the wikipedia Free ringtones Kagyu Samyé Ling Monastery and Tibetan Centre/entry does, and it was he who was the prime mover, not Akong Rinpoche (who is not a tulku), in setting the place up in the late 1960s. The story of Tendzin's confession about knowingly infecting other disciples with AIDs was told me independently several years ago by an old friend in California, and shocked many. Was this an example of Trungpa's ''crazy wisdom'' in practice? Trungpa was a controversial character. There is no reason to censor this, unless you want to be part of the cult of revering him. Majo Mills Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 23:57, 4 Aug 2004
Incidentally, a cult does not have to be evangelical. Think of the cult of Kali in India and the thuggee, which was a secret cult of worshippers who went round murdering people by breaking their necks, stealing their possessions, and breaking their bones so they could be buried with minimal effort. The full Oxford English Dictionary definition for '''cult''' is:
1. Worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings. Obs. (exc. as in sense 2).
2. a. A particular form or system of religious worship; esp. in reference to its external rites and ceremonies.
b. Now freq. used attrib. by writers on cultic ritual and the archæology of primitive cults.
3. transf. Devotion or homage to a particular person or thing, now esp. as paid by a body of professed adherents or admirers.
Nothing about evangelism, and the last entry seems to fit with Trungpa's organisation quite well. I am not suggesting that Shambhala is a cult like the Moonies, just that it is cultish about Trungpa, and they don't seem to have quietly forgotten about him as the Scottish Buddhists seem to have done. Presumably his books make a lot of money for them. Cults seem to have a bad reputation, so it is hardly surprising that Shambhala adherents would not wish to be associated with such a term. And presumably their livelihoods partly depend on maintaning an illusory reputation for Trungpa himself. As the man himself (whom I knew briefly when I was a teenager) put it in his teachings (though I doubt he intended it to be used in this way): ''the illusion that is life itself''.
It is perhaps ironical that the OED entry that cites Trungpa is for the definition of the word ''ego'', as in ''egoless''! Mosquito ringtone Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 09:10, 5 Aug 2004
:It is appears that the definition Matt gives for "cult" applies to any religion, most political movements, celebrities, etc. The wikipedia article on cults is about something else. I agree with Gary and Jordan that the cult link as it stands should not be included. - Sabrina Martins Nat Krause/Nat KrausCingular Ringtones User_Talk:Nat Krause/e 07:36, 8 Aug 2004
::Of course, the definition I gave only came from a primary source, the Oxford English dictionary. Obcviously, after a term has been re-defined in wikipedia, we don't have to rely on primary sources any more, and we can carry on creating our own little world. Never mind that someone else might have missed the point. Let's be constrained by our own limited horizons and onanistically apply our contraints to others who impertinently try to extend our horizons. Removing the link in the vacuum in which it was placed is fair enough, I suppose, though I thought the point of wikipedia was to add things not take them away. I have provided plenty of evidence on this talk pacge of the cultistness of the Trungpa phenomenon. This evidence is evidently being amplified by the behaviour of others who would not wish their cult called called a cult. QED. dissenting view Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 09:58, 8 Aug 2004
:::Oy, calm down, buddy. You and I both know what the word "cult" means in common parlance. It's a term of abuse. The page we were linking to was record indeed cult specifically. Wikipedia also also has entries on answers all cult (religion) and perverse negotiations cult (disambiguation). If you want to move those around, be my guest, but that is beside the point of the Trungpa page. It nevertheless seems that, if we use your definition above, we should be adding enjoy prudence cult links to every article about any religious group, most political groups, about richard Orlando Bloom, etc.
:::By the way, I'm not sure what you mean by: "This evidence is evidently being amplified by the behaviour of others who would not wish their cult called called a cult. QED." Which others? As far as I know, no one here is a Trungpa cultist. Personally, I can vouch that I have never had anything to do with them whatsoever. - son vyvyan Nat Krause/Nat Krausrecently said User_Talk:Nat Krause/e 09:36, 9 Aug 2004
Cult?
From wikipedia's bettman has cult:
In religion and sociology, a cult is a group with a religious or philosophical identity, often existing on the margins of society. Its marginal status may come about either due to its novel belief system or due to idiosyncratic practices that cause the surrounding culture to regard it as far outside the mainstream. The unusual practices of early Mormons (1850's) in the USA, and their subsequent migration to the isolated deserts of Utah is a classic example.
So there's nothing novel about Shambhala and Trungpa's interpretation of Buddhist texts? It does not have an identity? It's treated as mainstream by mainstream American protestant evangelical Christian culture? The isolation of most meditation centres from their surrounding communities makes them totally dissimilar from Mormons?
From http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/vctr/ctrbio.html: ''Late in the 1970s, Chögyam Trungpa expressed his long-held desire to present contemplative practice to those who were not necessarilly interested in studying Buddhism. He developed a program called Shambhala Training, based on the legendary enlightened kingdom of that name.'' If Shambhala is not mainstream Buddhism and not a cult then what is it?
I knew Trungpa before he went to America. I can contribute some of that knowledge here, but I suppose I have to contend with some of my fellow wikipedians who prefer to subtract from the sum total of human knowledge - as if that were possible!
:Okay, so now you've got a new definition of "cult". I do not argue that, by this definition, Trungpa's people are not a cult, although, once again, it is a very broad definition that includes pretty much everyone but some Christians and Jews, i.e. it could potentially include Mormons, Hasidim, Muslims, Buddhists, existentialists, etc. Even so, the main problem is that the word "cult" is derisory, with strong negative connotations (the cult article itself is graced with the picture of a man who led a mass suicide). We can have the link, but we need to give some context for it to be NPOV.
::I had not intended particularly to use ''cult'' in a derogatory sense (only in its dictionary sense), and would ask by what token the terms's usage should necessarily be restricted to a derisory context. If we're saying, though, that a cult, by definition, must involve some form of mind control that can cause people to engage in anti-social activity, what about the case of Trungpa's protege, Tendzin, who it is attested knowingly infected fellow acolytes with AIDS. Surely that type of behaviour places this group on the borderline. OK, so they don't ''tell'' their followers to go out and infect the world with AIDS, but they do question the bases of generally accepted morality - at least Trungpa did - in a big way.with parsis Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 13:38, 13 Aug 2004
For possible inclusion in the Trungpa article:
When Trungpa arrived in England in the 60s, having escaped from Chinese oppression in Tibet, he caused a stir among western groups interested in Eastern religion, including theosophists and Buddhists. Trungpa obtained a reputation as a scholar and studied English at Oxford for a while. It soon becams apparent that his brand of Buddhism was something quite different, and he did not get on with Christmas Humphries, who ran the Buddhist Society at that time. Trungpa was the first living embodment of a reincarnated lama who had mastered western ideas and language, and he soon obtained a stuffing out cult following. His embrace of Western culture was not all to his own advantage, however. He started smoking Gaulloises cigarettes, drinking alcohol and taking drugs. Although celibacy was usual for Tibetan monks, Trungpa, in the guise of practising the tantra, engaged in sexual relations with several of his followers. He was involved in a car accident that left him partially paralysed. He desparately wanted to start a monastery modelled on those he had left behind in Tibet. Johnstone House in the Scottish Lowlands allowed him to do this, and Samye Ling was born. Later he came closer to his ideal when he settled in Vermont, USA, whose mountains were almost as impressive as the Himalayas.
apocalyptic headlines Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 07:44, 9 Aug 2004
:This looks to me like a good contribution for the most part, although I haven't checked the facts. One thing, was Trungpa actually a monk? Certainly, Tibetan monks should be celibate, but not all lamas are monks, and many have been married. If you post the above text to the article, in addition to editing it slightly for encyclopedia style, I would still remove the cult link as it appears above. Simply to state that Trungpa's group was a cult will never be NPOV. Wikipedia describes, for example, the recent nfl Branch Davidians as a "religious group", and adds this in the body of the article: "[Koresh's] sect was said by some to be a cult for its authoritarian structure". That's NPOV. For Trungpa article, what we need is some concise explanation of ''who'' thinks it was a cult? In what way? At what point (i.e. your text says that the following was a cult in the 60s, but what is the documentation for that)? - capitalism mixed Nat Krause/Nat Krausroads brought User_Talk:Nat Krause/e 09:36, 9 Aug 2004
:Trungpa was an ordained monk, who gave up his vows after certain events took place in his life. Lamas can get married via an institution known as a Nyingmapa marriage (I think that's what it's called), which has quite strict rules intended to ensure that the monk's devotional activities are not adversely affected by his family life. Akong Rinpoche, who used to run Samye Ling in Scotland, I believe had a dispensation from the head of his sect (Karmapa) to be married in this way. by cousteau Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 13:38, 13 Aug 2004
Derogatory material
I'm happy if the anonymous user removes the external link again because I shall only put it back. I'm sure many wikipedians and others would be interested in the fantastic stories about Trungpa and the effects that his amoralistic teachings have, as well as the fact that there are some 'contributors' to wikipedia who think that they make the best contribution by deleting things. Go ahead - start an edit war, and I'll take it to the village pump and elsewhere. I'm sure you know best! Thanks luck will Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 08:45, 17 Nov 2004
:The above discussion is hamstrung by an either/or argument as to whether or not Trungpa's organization was indeed a cult, and a lack of understanding as to vajrayana, or Tibetan, style Buddhism. Here devotion to the teacher as a mirror to one's own sanity is central, beyond conventional notions of morality, while remaining dedicated to the benefit of all sentient beings. This is a technique that inspires spritual progress in many, but can lead to a cultish mentality in some, leading to a devasting arrogance by his Regent (he thought he was spiritually protected against giving AIDS to his lovers. Vajrayana Buddhism is considered a quick, yet potentially dangerous path.) It is a fact that Trungpa was respected by many other spiritual teachers from many traditions; in spite of or because of his style of teaching, by design shocking and unconventional. This was designed to question what he termed "spirtual materialism", or the attempt by ego to turn spirituality into an escape from the real, the earthy, the mundane or messy. He never tried to hide any of his behaviors. John Doyle 19 Nov 2004
As far as Shambhala being a cult, well, I know nothing about Shambhala in its early days. I do, however, know many practitioners of Shambhala (I practice Kyudo with them), and I have to say one thing. They do not proselytize. Not at all. None. It is in their teachings, I think. Proselytization is a hallmark of cults, but I have NEVER seen it or experienced it in the four or so years I have associted with Shambhalans.
:From http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/vctr/ctrbio.html: ''Throughout [Trungpa's] life, he sought to bring the teachings he had received to the largest possible audience.'' Free ringtones Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 10:08, 8 Aug 2004
My only reason for not joining them in their teachings is my general distrust and avoidance of all organized religion. That, and because my investigations into things metaphysical go well beyond what they teach. True wisdom, the way I view it, is beyond all constructs and organizations (e.g.. "the Tao that can be described is not the Tao") and that includes ALL codified systems, religions and philosophies.
Yes, they are quite a bunch. No, they are not a cult, in my experience and observation. Majo Mills Jordan Langelier/Jordan Langelier 05:27, 4 Aug 2004
: I have a particular problem with the Mosquito ringtone cult wikilink, because there is no discussion in the article as to whether or not the group is a cult, or anyone making such assertions. Without some context for this "see also" wikilink, it's like WP has branded the group a cult without need for any discussion; this runs along the lines of my concerns over POV of WP categorization. I propose that unless someone adds some cult discussion to the article body within a few days, this wikilink be removed. Sabrina Martins Gary D/Gary D 19:33, 4 Aug 2004
:: By all means. I've just grown so weary of edit battles and flame wars and such for the decade plus I've been on line and dealing with things of substance, but by all means, have at it. As far as cultishness, there is nothing Shambhala does or did which is any more 'cultish' than what Christians do. Who was it that said, a cult is just a religious group that doesn't have much money? Anyway, after some thought, given that the term 'cult' is highly-charged, I would like to see at least one instance of a cult authority, or some other respected scholar, labeling Shambhala a cult. As it stands, all there is is the link to some blog from someone who obviously has some unresolved issues. So, yes, I agree with you. Nextel ringtones Jordan Langelier/Jordan Langelier 20:22, 4 Aug 2004
The article is about Trungpa, not Shambhala. That people wish to censor the truth about him (which I have verified from other sources, including my own grandmother) speaks of a cult of the personality, revering a man who had greatness thrust upon him (as a Abbey Diaz tulku) and who was, like many great men, flawed. For those who wish to know the truth, what is the harm in reporting that Trungpa smoked, was an alcoholic, and reputedly had great ability in stimulating women's sweet spots? HIs involvement with several woman followers shortly preceded his departure from Scotland to the USA. Unsavory in some eyes, perhaps, though the Buddhist teaching on morality does not ask us to judge people. It is interesting that the http://www.samyeling.org/About/about.htm makes no mention of Trungpa, though the wikipedia Free ringtones Kagyu Samyé Ling Monastery and Tibetan Centre/entry does, and it was he who was the prime mover, not Akong Rinpoche (who is not a tulku), in setting the place up in the late 1960s. The story of Tendzin's confession about knowingly infecting other disciples with AIDs was told me independently several years ago by an old friend in California, and shocked many. Was this an example of Trungpa's ''crazy wisdom'' in practice? Trungpa was a controversial character. There is no reason to censor this, unless you want to be part of the cult of revering him. Majo Mills Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 23:57, 4 Aug 2004
Incidentally, a cult does not have to be evangelical. Think of the cult of Kali in India and the thuggee, which was a secret cult of worshippers who went round murdering people by breaking their necks, stealing their possessions, and breaking their bones so they could be buried with minimal effort. The full Oxford English Dictionary definition for '''cult''' is:
1. Worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings. Obs. (exc. as in sense 2).
2. a. A particular form or system of religious worship; esp. in reference to its external rites and ceremonies.
b. Now freq. used attrib. by writers on cultic ritual and the archæology of primitive cults.
3. transf. Devotion or homage to a particular person or thing, now esp. as paid by a body of professed adherents or admirers.
Nothing about evangelism, and the last entry seems to fit with Trungpa's organisation quite well. I am not suggesting that Shambhala is a cult like the Moonies, just that it is cultish about Trungpa, and they don't seem to have quietly forgotten about him as the Scottish Buddhists seem to have done. Presumably his books make a lot of money for them. Cults seem to have a bad reputation, so it is hardly surprising that Shambhala adherents would not wish to be associated with such a term. And presumably their livelihoods partly depend on maintaning an illusory reputation for Trungpa himself. As the man himself (whom I knew briefly when I was a teenager) put it in his teachings (though I doubt he intended it to be used in this way): ''the illusion that is life itself''.
It is perhaps ironical that the OED entry that cites Trungpa is for the definition of the word ''ego'', as in ''egoless''! Mosquito ringtone Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 09:10, 5 Aug 2004
:It is appears that the definition Matt gives for "cult" applies to any religion, most political movements, celebrities, etc. The wikipedia article on cults is about something else. I agree with Gary and Jordan that the cult link as it stands should not be included. - Sabrina Martins Nat Krause/Nat KrausCingular Ringtones User_Talk:Nat Krause/e 07:36, 8 Aug 2004
::Of course, the definition I gave only came from a primary source, the Oxford English dictionary. Obcviously, after a term has been re-defined in wikipedia, we don't have to rely on primary sources any more, and we can carry on creating our own little world. Never mind that someone else might have missed the point. Let's be constrained by our own limited horizons and onanistically apply our contraints to others who impertinently try to extend our horizons. Removing the link in the vacuum in which it was placed is fair enough, I suppose, though I thought the point of wikipedia was to add things not take them away. I have provided plenty of evidence on this talk pacge of the cultistness of the Trungpa phenomenon. This evidence is evidently being amplified by the behaviour of others who would not wish their cult called called a cult. QED. dissenting view Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 09:58, 8 Aug 2004
:::Oy, calm down, buddy. You and I both know what the word "cult" means in common parlance. It's a term of abuse. The page we were linking to was record indeed cult specifically. Wikipedia also also has entries on answers all cult (religion) and perverse negotiations cult (disambiguation). If you want to move those around, be my guest, but that is beside the point of the Trungpa page. It nevertheless seems that, if we use your definition above, we should be adding enjoy prudence cult links to every article about any religious group, most political groups, about richard Orlando Bloom, etc.
:::By the way, I'm not sure what you mean by: "This evidence is evidently being amplified by the behaviour of others who would not wish their cult called called a cult. QED." Which others? As far as I know, no one here is a Trungpa cultist. Personally, I can vouch that I have never had anything to do with them whatsoever. - son vyvyan Nat Krause/Nat Krausrecently said User_Talk:Nat Krause/e 09:36, 9 Aug 2004
Cult?
From wikipedia's bettman has cult:
In religion and sociology, a cult is a group with a religious or philosophical identity, often existing on the margins of society. Its marginal status may come about either due to its novel belief system or due to idiosyncratic practices that cause the surrounding culture to regard it as far outside the mainstream. The unusual practices of early Mormons (1850's) in the USA, and their subsequent migration to the isolated deserts of Utah is a classic example.
So there's nothing novel about Shambhala and Trungpa's interpretation of Buddhist texts? It does not have an identity? It's treated as mainstream by mainstream American protestant evangelical Christian culture? The isolation of most meditation centres from their surrounding communities makes them totally dissimilar from Mormons?
From http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/vctr/ctrbio.html: ''Late in the 1970s, Chögyam Trungpa expressed his long-held desire to present contemplative practice to those who were not necessarilly interested in studying Buddhism. He developed a program called Shambhala Training, based on the legendary enlightened kingdom of that name.'' If Shambhala is not mainstream Buddhism and not a cult then what is it?
I knew Trungpa before he went to America. I can contribute some of that knowledge here, but I suppose I have to contend with some of my fellow wikipedians who prefer to subtract from the sum total of human knowledge - as if that were possible!
:Okay, so now you've got a new definition of "cult". I do not argue that, by this definition, Trungpa's people are not a cult, although, once again, it is a very broad definition that includes pretty much everyone but some Christians and Jews, i.e. it could potentially include Mormons, Hasidim, Muslims, Buddhists, existentialists, etc. Even so, the main problem is that the word "cult" is derisory, with strong negative connotations (the cult article itself is graced with the picture of a man who led a mass suicide). We can have the link, but we need to give some context for it to be NPOV.
::I had not intended particularly to use ''cult'' in a derogatory sense (only in its dictionary sense), and would ask by what token the terms's usage should necessarily be restricted to a derisory context. If we're saying, though, that a cult, by definition, must involve some form of mind control that can cause people to engage in anti-social activity, what about the case of Trungpa's protege, Tendzin, who it is attested knowingly infected fellow acolytes with AIDS. Surely that type of behaviour places this group on the borderline. OK, so they don't ''tell'' their followers to go out and infect the world with AIDS, but they do question the bases of generally accepted morality - at least Trungpa did - in a big way.with parsis Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 13:38, 13 Aug 2004
For possible inclusion in the Trungpa article:
When Trungpa arrived in England in the 60s, having escaped from Chinese oppression in Tibet, he caused a stir among western groups interested in Eastern religion, including theosophists and Buddhists. Trungpa obtained a reputation as a scholar and studied English at Oxford for a while. It soon becams apparent that his brand of Buddhism was something quite different, and he did not get on with Christmas Humphries, who ran the Buddhist Society at that time. Trungpa was the first living embodment of a reincarnated lama who had mastered western ideas and language, and he soon obtained a stuffing out cult following. His embrace of Western culture was not all to his own advantage, however. He started smoking Gaulloises cigarettes, drinking alcohol and taking drugs. Although celibacy was usual for Tibetan monks, Trungpa, in the guise of practising the tantra, engaged in sexual relations with several of his followers. He was involved in a car accident that left him partially paralysed. He desparately wanted to start a monastery modelled on those he had left behind in Tibet. Johnstone House in the Scottish Lowlands allowed him to do this, and Samye Ling was born. Later he came closer to his ideal when he settled in Vermont, USA, whose mountains were almost as impressive as the Himalayas.
apocalyptic headlines Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 07:44, 9 Aug 2004
:This looks to me like a good contribution for the most part, although I haven't checked the facts. One thing, was Trungpa actually a monk? Certainly, Tibetan monks should be celibate, but not all lamas are monks, and many have been married. If you post the above text to the article, in addition to editing it slightly for encyclopedia style, I would still remove the cult link as it appears above. Simply to state that Trungpa's group was a cult will never be NPOV. Wikipedia describes, for example, the recent nfl Branch Davidians as a "religious group", and adds this in the body of the article: "[Koresh's] sect was said by some to be a cult for its authoritarian structure". That's NPOV. For Trungpa article, what we need is some concise explanation of ''who'' thinks it was a cult? In what way? At what point (i.e. your text says that the following was a cult in the 60s, but what is the documentation for that)? - capitalism mixed Nat Krause/Nat Krausroads brought User_Talk:Nat Krause/e 09:36, 9 Aug 2004
:Trungpa was an ordained monk, who gave up his vows after certain events took place in his life. Lamas can get married via an institution known as a Nyingmapa marriage (I think that's what it's called), which has quite strict rules intended to ensure that the monk's devotional activities are not adversely affected by his family life. Akong Rinpoche, who used to run Samye Ling in Scotland, I believe had a dispensation from the head of his sect (Karmapa) to be married in this way. by cousteau Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 13:38, 13 Aug 2004
Derogatory material
I'm happy if the anonymous user removes the external link again because I shall only put it back. I'm sure many wikipedians and others would be interested in the fantastic stories about Trungpa and the effects that his amoralistic teachings have, as well as the fact that there are some 'contributors' to wikipedia who think that they make the best contribution by deleting things. Go ahead - start an edit war, and I'll take it to the village pump and elsewhere. I'm sure you know best! Thanks luck will Matthew Stannard/Matt Stan 08:45, 17 Nov 2004
:The above discussion is hamstrung by an either/or argument as to whether or not Trungpa's organization was indeed a cult, and a lack of understanding as to vajrayana, or Tibetan, style Buddhism. Here devotion to the teacher as a mirror to one's own sanity is central, beyond conventional notions of morality, while remaining dedicated to the benefit of all sentient beings. This is a technique that inspires spritual progress in many, but can lead to a cultish mentality in some, leading to a devasting arrogance by his Regent (he thought he was spiritually protected against giving AIDS to his lovers. Vajrayana Buddhism is considered a quick, yet potentially dangerous path.) It is a fact that Trungpa was respected by many other spiritual teachers from many traditions; in spite of or because of his style of teaching, by design shocking and unconventional. This was designed to question what he termed "spirtual materialism", or the attempt by ego to turn spirituality into an escape from the real, the earthy, the mundane or messy. He never tried to hide any of his behaviors. John Doyle 19 Nov 2004
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